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| How Apple and Microsoft intend to destroy Android |
| By Thom Holwerda on 2012-07-29 10:48:54 |
| Groklaw nails it: "In other words, [Apple and Microsoft] want to disarm the companies that got there first, built the standards, and created the field, while the come-later types clean up on patents on things like slide to unlock or a tablet shape with rounded corners. Then the money flows to Apple and Microsoft, and away from Android - and isn't that really the point of all this, to destroy Android by hook or by crook? The parties who were in the mobile phone business years before Apple or Microsoft even thought about doing it thus get nothing much for their earlier issued patents that have become standards. Apple and Microsoft can't compete on an even field, because the patent system rewards the first to invent (or now, after the recent patent reform, the first to file). Neither Apple nor Microsoft got there first. Samsung was there, since the '90s." To illustrate: Apple is demanding $24 (!) per Samsung device for design patents, while at the same time, Apple also demands that Samsung does not charge more than $0.0049 per standards essential patent per device. This is absolutely, utterly, and entirely indefensible. And then Apple and its supporters have the nerve to claim Samsung is ripping them off. Yes, this pisses me off, and no, that's not because it's Apple doing it (Microsoft is just as guilty). It's because this is plainly, utterly, clearly, and intrinsically unfair. |
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| RE[7]: Whining by proxy |
| By Thom_Holwerda on 2012-07-30 12:04:36 |
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> Are you arguing that Apple collects data on the content of documents stored in iCloud on a per user basis in a similar way that Google collects data in say Gmail in order to commercialise that data in a similar way that Google does? If so then some evidence supporting that hypothesis would be useful. Yes. Per Apple's own privacy policy which governs iCloud: "We also use personal information to help us develop, deliver, and improve our products, services, content, and advertising." "We also collect non-personal information − data in a form that does not permit direct association with any specific individual. We may collect, use, transfer, and disclose non-personal information for any purpose." "We may collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used so that we can better understand customer behavior and improve our products, services, and advertising." And this is just a selection. Anything you send to Apple - whether they classify it as 'personal' or not - can and will be used for advertising and other purposes. Just like Google. Google does so in a completely automated fashion (no people involved), and it's pretty obvious Google has far more advanced tools to do so than Apple does (since it's, as you agree, it's Google's core business). In other words, I'd much rather (but still wouldn't and therefore don't) store my data at Google than at Apple. On top of that, Google gives far, far, far more insight in and control over the data they have collected on you. Apple provides nothing of the sort. Zero. Seems like someone has something to hide. Edited 2012-07-30 12:06 UTC |
 - Score: 2 |
| Expensive storm in a tea cup. |
| By siraf72 on 2012-07-30 12:20:23 |
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Nothing of substance will be decided in court. The real battle will take place in the market place as it (almost) always does. Big companies *have* to sue each other otherwise we'll have too many unemployed lawyers wandering the streets and no one wants that. |
| - Score: 2 |
| RE[5]: Whining by proxy |
| By gan17 on 2012-07-30 12:33:34 |
|
> Thom calm down. I have never said Google is evil But they are, or at least just as evil as Apple. Google treats you like a product, Apple treats you like a resource. Choose your poison, or make a cocktail. > my motivation to post comments is mostly built on my affection for Apple That's just sad, whether you're a stock holder or not. They're (Google & Apple) tech companies, ffs!! It's not like they make motorcycles or guitars. |
| - Score: 3 |
| RE[8]: Whining by proxy |
| By Tony Swash on 2012-07-30 12:59:03 |
|
> > Are you arguing that Apple collects data on the content of documents stored in iCloud on a per user basis in a similar way that Google collects data in say Gmail in order to commercialise that data in a similar way that Google does? If so then some evidence supporting that hypothesis would be useful. Yes. Per Apple's own privacy policy which governs iCloud: "We also use personal information to help us develop, deliver, and improve our products, services, content, and advertising." "We also collect non-personal information − data in a form that does not permit direct association with any specific individual. We may collect, use, transfer, and disclose non-personal information for any purpose." "We may collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used so that we can better understand customer behavior and improve our products, services, and advertising." And this is just a selection. Anything you send to Apple - whether they classify it as 'personal' or not - can and will be used for advertising and other purposes. Just like Google. Google does so in a completely automated fashion (no people involved), and it's pretty obvious Google has far more advanced tools to do so than Apple does (since it's, as you agree, it's Google's core business). In other words, I'd much rather (but still wouldn't and therefore don't) store my data at Google than at Apple. On top of that, Google gives far, far, far more insight in and control over the data they have collected on you. Apple provides nothing of the sort. Zero. Seems like someone has something to hide. I think we may be talking at cross purposes. I don't care that Google collects data about me or anyone else. I also don't care if Apple collect data, or who has the best privacy policies. Those things are interesting but I don't care about them. I do think that the role of collecting user data is far more important in Google's business model than Apple's business model, that it explains far more of what Google does than of what Apple does. For example I don't think anyone would argue that Apple's device products are just sold as a way to collect user data, rather they are Apple's prime product and collecting user data is a side game and so if one wanted to analyse what drove Apple to make it's big strategic decisions one wouldn't start with the collection of user data. Conversely the collection of user data is central to Google's business model and it is therefore a useful place to start when trying to understand what motivates Google's strategic business decisions. Why did Google do Android? It cost an awful lot, even without factoring in the costs of the Motorola acquisition. Is there any doubt that Google's prime motivation in doing Android was ensure that it's services, and hence it's ability to collect user data, were not shut out of the rapidly growing mobile device market? There is nothing wrong with that motivation, it's logical from Google's point of view. All this is a long way from my main point in my original comment. What Google is doing is absolutely OK and as long as it is not illegal that have every right to do it. But only a fool thinks that is has no consequences. Google is trying to destroy the business model of a wide range of companies which is absolutely OK and not 'evil' or anything like that. But it has consequences. Google's competitors and those companies who are being deliberately threatened by Google's actions have every right to fight back, again if the way they do so is legal. But to argue that anyone is being unfair to Google is simply just pathetic. As I said what I really can't stand is the whining self pity and the pretence of martyrdom. "All we did is try to destroy your business and now you are being really nasty to us. Why!" Pathetic. |
| - Score: 2 |
| RE: Mobile business? |
| By lemur2 on 2012-07-30 13:20:08 |
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> Apple and Microsoft have every right to go after Android. No they do not. Neither Apple nor Microsoft have one iota of code in Android. Nada. Zilch. No ownership whatsoever over any part of Android. |
| - Score: 2 |
| RE[3]: Comment by El_Exigente |
| By cdude on 2012-07-30 14:19:48 |
| You mean in the same way Samsung has designed its black boxes with rounded corners in the "Sony Style" but yet gets sued by Apple? |
| - Score: 2 |
| RE[2]: Mobile business? |
| By moondevil on 2012-07-30 14:20:23 |
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They do, if they ever go to court to dispute their patents that might be used in Linux code as Microsoft keeps claiming, and win. Until then you're right. |
| - Score: 3 |
| RE[8]: Whining by proxy |
| By ilovebeer on 2012-07-30 15:28:35 |
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> On top of that, Google gives far, far, far more insight in and control over the data they have collected on you. Apple provides nothing of the sort. Zero. Seems like someone has something to hide. No, Google does not but I'm sure they appreciate that you think otherwise and are willing to blindly defend them. Btw, if you've been paying attention to the news lately you would have seen a report about Google and their less-than-stellar behavior regarding your privacy.. Here's a snippet for your enjoyment, compliments of Reuters: " Google said on Friday it had not kept its promise to delete all the personal data, such as emails, its Street View cars collected in Britain and other countries in 2010. The U.S. company admitted in May 2010 that its vehicles, which photograph neighborhoods to create street level images, had accidentally collected data from unsecured wireless networks used by residents in more than 30 countries. The failure to comply with a promise to delete all the data was notified to Britain's Information Commissioner's Office (ICO), which said the fact that the data still existed appeared to breach an undertaking signed by Google in November 2010. "The ICO is clear that this information should never have been collected in the first place and the company's failure to secure its deletion as promised is a cause for concern," the ICO said." |
| - Score: 4 |
| RE: Comment by El_Exigente |
| By itanic on 2012-07-30 16:12:15 |
|
> Evidently Groklaw thinks that because Apple uses Samsung's FRAND-encumbered standards-essential patents, that Apple is somehow obligated to let Samsung use Apple's patents at the same royalty rate. Where could such an idea have possibly come from? It certainly has nothing to do with reality. In return for having their patents made part of the standard, Samsung agreed to FRAND royalties, and if that is no longer sufficient, then that's Samsung's own fault, and possibly they will think longer and harder before getting into a similar situation again. The standard FRAND licensing fees are for companies who cross-license. Apple either needs to cross-license, or pay a higher rate; they shouldn't have it both ways. |
| - Score: 2 |
| RE[3]: Whining by proxy |
| By Sodki on 2012-07-30 16:36:59 |
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Google collects and analyses data, I agree. But what Google _really_ needs from you is _not_ that you feed them your personal data, but your time using their products, which in turn shows you ads, which in turn gives them money. Imagine that everyone in the world was using Gmail via IMAP. Google would have your data, but no money from ads. On the other hand, imagine that everyone is using Gmail without personal data. Google would still make money. |
| - Score: 3 |
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