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| OS X Mountain Lion: data loss via 'Save As' |
| By Thom Holwerda on 2012-08-06 13:16:11 |
| How this passed through Apple's Mountain Lion testing is beyond me. "If one edits a document, then chooses Save As, then BOTH the edited original document and the copy are saved, thus not only saving a new copy, but silently saving the original with the same changes, thus overwriting the original." Just goes to show: do not mess with my ability to save my stuff. There is no one-size-fits-all for this kind of delicate stuff. |
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| RE[2]: file versioning |
| By quackalist on 2012-08-06 16:31:36 |
|
hmm, voids the need for, "hysteric manual saving disorder, replacing it with an inferior hysteric manual copy disorder" from what I can gleam, though saving rather than copying, before editing, I'd have thought more prone to tears-at-bedtime than power failure. Bit puzzled about what's actually going on here...though losing an original document to save the possible loss of an edited version is counter-intuitive to how people actually think/work editing stuff. Can imagine a 'collaborative' document could end-up having little or no relation(unintended)to the original. Edited 2012-08-06 16:39 UTC |
 - Score: 2 |
| But Save As is not just for file versioning |
| By sgtrock on 2012-08-06 17:01:47 |
|
Many people use Save As to construct a template that will be used as a baseline for several other documents. It's such a common practice where I work that nobody thinks twice about doing this. That practice goes right out the window with this bug. So, how are we to create shared templates that won't get overwritten the first time someone tries to create a new document from a template? |
| - Score: 2 |
| RE[2]: Probably Auto Save |
| By mrstep on 2012-08-06 17:33:03 |
|
I like a lot of the things Apple has done, but Auto Save definitely isn't one of them. Agreed - totally stupid concept. It's about as half baked as an auto-save or versioning concept could be. Versions without the ability to name/describe them? Auto-save that slaps changes in and opens in that state on the next open of a document but at the same time loses the Undo command history that would at least sort of make it feel like a persistent app state? (Not that I want the auto-save bit to begin with, but if it's there shouldn't it at least make things feel like persistent editing state instead of keeping your changes and losing the logical way to undo parts of it?) Open a doc, resize and go to Save As..., oops looks like the original is already modified. Oh, and really bad interface for browsing the (unnamed) versions - if you can even find the way to invoke the comparisons. Seriously just horrible. |
| - Score: 3 |
| RE[2]: Probably Auto Save |
| By Tony Swash on 2012-08-06 17:50:25 |
|
> That is still horrible behaviour. Auto-save should not over-write the original document, it should be saving changes to a hidden file which can be recovered in the case of a crash. Over-writing a document without the user saying so is a terrible idea. I think you may be missing how Auto-Save actually works in OSX. Nothing is over written. All previous versions are stored and can be accessed via a Time Machine like interface by clicking the 'Revert to' menu item where you can browse all older versions. The 'Auto Save' function actually makes it much safer because everything is saved as you work and there are multiple versions of your document that you can access at any time. Its kinda of neat and once you get used to it you just forget about it until you have a problem and want to revert a document back to an earlier version (or for example create two versions with one based on an older draft) and then its very easy. Built in backup. So to talk about 'Data Loss' as the article heading does is a misnomer, no data is lost, it's just stored. The worse that can happen is that you have to do a couple of clicks to get it back. Hardly a big deal, Apple just have to clean up a couple of ways this implemented, which they may not do because it's for old fashioned people like us who still think in terms of using 'Save As' as a back up method. I repeat no data is being lost. |
| - Score: 4 |
| RE[3]: file versioning |
| By Tony Swash on 2012-08-06 17:57:03 |
|
> Bit puzzled about what's actually going on here...though losing an original document to save the possible loss of an edited version is counter-intuitive to how people actually think/work editing stuff. Can imagine a 'collaborative' document could end-up having little or no relation(unintended)to the original. See my earlier comment. I tested this behaviour and no data is being lost. What happens when you do a 'save as' is that the original version reflects the latest version and the older version appears as the most recent backed version. I really cannot see how anyone can lose any data doing any of this. Apple's logic is that it's better to have an automatic system that means everyone's data is protected than create a manual system that is nice and flexible and familiar for a few but which leaves the majority open to data loss. Seems sound reasoning to me. Maybe Apple will tweak it's implementation to suit the few but I wouldn't bet on it. |
| - Score: 3 |
| RE[2]: file versioning |
| By mrstep on 2012-08-06 18:00:18 |
|
To me the best feature is that it's opt-in on the part of apps and that at least Photoshop and some other apps I use a lot don't opt-in. [Yet?] I really find it to be one of the most annoying things I've ever dealt with for content creation - having to now manually remember to revert all changes out of a file before closing the app or window if I actually want to discard them, or having to make duplicates ahead of time just to do temporary operations - otherwise having what are in many cases just tests or throwaway changes on graphics and 3d models overwriting the originals. Most apps are stable enough to not worry about them suddenly quitting, and most already had a timed autosave that you could use to open the file with the changes that were in progress while leaving the original file alone. Much nicer for how I work. Oh, and as a bonus - DON'T think that autosave will protect you if the app crashes, at least not any more than having timed backup/temp files written out. If the app hasn't autosaved your most recent changes yet, they're lost in case of a crash! Surprise! |
| - Score: 3 |
| RE[2]: file versioning |
| By _txf_ on 2012-08-06 18:19:15 |
|
> replacing it with a superior versioning mechanism ! It works well in Apple programs. Unfortunately the crashiest and/or most critical programs mostly Office and Matlab ( Netbeans, Eclipse you get used to source control ) don't implement this feature. This means that one cannot let go of the instinct to save meaning one has to keep two different paradigms in ones head at all times... Edited 2012-08-06 18:20 UTC |
| - Score: 4 |
| RE: But Save As is not just for file versioning |
| By rob_mx on 2012-08-06 18:29:29 |
|
> ... So, how are we to create shared templates that won't get overwritten the first time someone tries to create a new document from a template? By "Locking" the file. I think this was a feature since Lion. It would auto-lock the file after not being edited for a while, and it would offer you to duplicate the file. I think you can lock / unlock the file at will, but I haven't tried. But I agree, this is breaking existing workflows. May be good, may be bad. |
| - Score: 4 |
| RE: But Save As is not just for file versioning |
| By kenji on 2012-08-06 19:48:55 |
|
My guess would be to save-as with new name BEFORE you edit anything. This is how I have always done it, just to be paranoid. The template file could always be set to read-only for the extra paranoid. |
| - Score: 3 |
| RE[4]: file versioning |
| By quackalist on 2012-08-06 20:16:35 |
| Can't see how data isn't been lost cumulatively. Don't use mac but from what I understand you to mean a file is in a liner process of change and unless you remembered to copy the file from the beginning you have 2 versions, the present and the previous 'save-as' as the bak which is whatever variable of 'save-as's' from the original. |
| - Score: 1 |
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