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| Review: Windows 8 RTM |
| By Thom Holwerda, submitted by Bob Stein on 2012-09-26 20:16:43 |
| ActiveWin.com has just posted their 45-page, 40-screenshot review of Microsoft Windows 8. The review covers many different aspects of the OS including performance, security, application compatibility, and more. "Is Windows 8 a hit or miss? It's a hit, it is clearly Microsoft's most bold development in years, it probably beats out the transition from Program Manager (Windows 3X) to Windows 95, the move from Windows 9x to the NT Kernel. The Windows 8 platform represents so many things: truly touch centric, support for modern processor architectures, fast and fluid as Microsoft puts it and also represents where the majority of the world is heading when it comes to computing, entirely mobile." |
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| RE[6]: A mixed bag |
| By Nelson on 2012-09-27 09:52:28 |
| Save me the time and don't speak. |
 - Score: 2 |
| RE[4]: Touch on a desktop machine just doesn't work |
| By saso on 2012-09-27 10:51:27 |
|
> I think you realized what a stupid reply this was. I've already clarified this part about a half hour before you responded. But obviously that didn't stop you from dismissing out of hand what I said. Quite dishonest, don't you think? > The majority of screen sizes are 20 inches and below. Not on desktops, which is what I was talking about (you know, the title of my post said "Touch on a desktop machine..."). But hey, when you're strawmanning my position, why stop now? > At those sizes, touch augments, not replaces, the interaction experience. You didn't touch your All In One for everything prior, did you? I wasn't touching it at all, since when using the keyboard and mouse I'm sitting much further away from the machine. Even so points 3, 4 and 5 still stand - Metro simply doesn't scale well to large machines (not to mention the fact that it utterly fails at multi-monitoring). My original post was as a result of me doing a deliberate touch-only test to see if it is usable. My conclusion is that it is not. I had to put the keyboard and mouse aside, since they were in the way, so using it as an augmentation is nonsense. It's either-or. Any combination felt awkward and I had to continually adjust my seating position and move the keyboard/mouse around on the table (to have a place where to rest my elbows). > It would make sense of you didn't mince my point and nitpick. It would make sense if you didn't strawman my position. I never said touch screens don't work on small/handheld devices. In fact, I said quite the opposite: > Thus I conclude that this UI was clearly intended for tablets/smartphones, not desktops. > I was saying that in contrast, touch is designed to be the only input method has a falling off point you're rapidly approaching. That is all nice and sweet, but what about the desktop machine users (such, oh I don't know, about 95% of the enterprise?) who do have large screens? Microsoft clearly intends this interface to be *the* method to interact with their new OS. Are they willing to relegate an entire extremely important market segment over to the "legacy" column? It's nice that Windows 8 works well in some areas - woohoo for them. But that doesn't solve the problem of it sucking in some other scenarios. Users don't average their experience over all market segments. > It also coincides with your exotic choice of hardware. You're outside the norm expecting norm results. Excuse me? This is one of the flagship desktop machines from Dell. The mere fact that it's "all-in-one" means jack shit - users don't care if the components of the computer are crammed up behind the screen or sit in a separate box on the floor. The important bit is the interface - the touch screen. But perhaps you're one of those mobile hipsters who thinks desktop machines are dead. Well guess what, a majority of businesses and enterprise users aren't going to give them up any time soon, and even personal-use laptops are often attached to an external KVM. It's just the nature of the user interface - large screens with comfy keyboards and mice are still much more usable than the crammed, dumbed down micro-interfaces of mobile machines. > Really? Which model? That you can't see which model I meant about shows me the level of your reading comprehension. I wrote which model I tried in my first response to you. > Dells W8 AIO lineup isn't out yet. I know because I'm looking for one. The occasion when I tried this machine was at a consumer electronics show - Dell was showing how their "future W8 desktops" would look like. It was exactly like this one: http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/... > The Windows 7 class hardware multitouch digitizer isn't up to snuff with new W8 requirements which is why charms bars can be hit or miss, why its usually only three or five point multi touch, and why responsiveness falls off toward the center. The machine will remain in production for the coming 2 years. It was been designed with W8 in mind. > The Windows 7 class hardware multitouch digitizer isn't up to snuff with new W8 requirements which is why charms bars can be hit or miss, why its usually only three or five point multi touch, and why responsiveness falls off toward the center. My problem wasn't with the machine not registering or misinterpreting my touches, so it wasn't a hardware/driver/whatever issue. My problems stemmed from the fact of how the interface itself is designed, so all I tried was pre-installed Microsoft stuff (there wasn't anything custom by Dell in there). > Windows Store doesn't even have a bottom app bar, it has a green top one. IIRC it was the "Games" tile on the home screen, which should be part of the Store app, but it might have been the "Messaging" app. I didn't install anything 3rd party for sure (since the machine wasn't linked to a Live account). > And in IE a bottom swipe brings up the top app bar. Same with other apps. In fact this is baked into the SDK if you check the MSDN documents. I can only comment on my experience, I haven't checked any documentation. IE shows the address bar at the bottom and the tabs at the top. Swipe in from the top showed both, swipe in from the bottom did nothing. |
| - Score: 0 |
| RE: ReFS |
| By saso on 2012-09-27 10:56:40 |
|
> Besides a listing of the improvements, how is performance? Since it isn't out yet, benchmarks aren't either. We'll need to see. > Is there a conversion process available? No. > Seems like a change this big would be more than a brief mention on the second to last page. ReFS will only be made available on Windows 8 Server for the time being. Desktops will remain NTFS-only. > Also, the article does not make clear if there are still separate OEM and retail versions of the OS. This would be good to know if I plan on purchasing Windows 8 on my current computer, then attempt to move it to a different machine later. There are separate versions, but OEM versions can no longer be purchased by consumers. See the details see: http://www.myce.com/news/exclusi... http://www.tomshardware.com/news... |
| - Score: 1 |
| RE[5]: Touch on a desktop machine just doesn't work |
| By Nelson on 2012-09-27 11:17:39 |
|
> I've already clarified this part about a half hour before you responded. But obviously that didn't stop you from dismissing out of hand what I said. Quite dishonest, don't you think? Not on desktops, which is what I was talking about (you know, the title of my post said "Touch on a desktop machine..."). But hey, when you're strawmanning my position, why stop now? That's such a dumb artificial restriction. The point in my original comments calling you a minority was to highlight the fact that when contrasted against the entirety of the Windows ecosystem, you're in the minority. I don't very much care that you can twist numbers and male your setup more common. It isn't the point I'm making at all. > I wasn't touching it at all, since when using the keyboard and mouse I'm sitting much further away from the machine. Even so points 3, 4 and 5 still stand - Metro simply doesn't scale well to large machines (not to mention the fact that it utterly fails at multi-monitoring). Which makes sense. AIOs aren't primarily designed for touch. This would ring true using any touch OS. The ergonomics are not there. Touch is instead supposed to augment, much like now the mouse augments the keyboard. Same with Pen. Its a choice. > My original post was as a result of me doing a deliberate touch-only test to see if it is usable. My conclusion is that it is not. I had to put the keyboard and mouse aside, since they were in the way, so using it as an augmentation is nonsense. It's either-or. Any combination felt awkward and I had to continually adjust my seating position and move the keyboard/mouse around on the table (to have a place where to rest my elbows). The model you said you tested has an adjustable stand. You can tilt it closer to you. That's the entire point. Touch is optional. Using it as the primary method of input is absurd. However, its not the fault of the OS. Its just not a form factor suited for that kind of thing. The same goes for the touch screen laptops. Its there in addition to a touchpad. Not to replace it. That's the greatest miss I think people have when it comes to Windows 8. Touch is an option. So is Pen. So is Mouse. So is Keyboard. Its an option. > That is all nice and sweet, but what about the desktop machine users (such, oh I don't know, about 95% of the enterprise?) who do have large screens? Microsoft clearly intends this interface to be *the* method to interact with their new OS. Are they willing to relegate an entire extremely important market segment over to the "legacy" column? No. They can use a mouse and keyboard. They still exist. Shocking. I know. In fact, if they'd like, they purchase gesture enabled mice and trackpads. > It's nice that Windows 8 works well in some areas - woohoo for them. But that doesn't solve the problem of it sucking in some other scenarios. Users don't average their experience over all market segments. I think the issue is overblown, much like the Vista DRM stuff was overblown. At the time OSNews ran like 10 articles on it a say. FSF claimed it'd cause global flooding, etc. Things tend to get exaggerated. > Excuse me? This is one of the flagship desktop machines from Dell. The mere fact that it's "all-in-one" means jack shit - users don't care if the components of the computer are crammed up behind the screen or sit in a separate box on the floor. The important bit is the interface - the touch screen. But perhaps you're one of those mobile hipsters who thinks desktop machines are dead. AIOs are in and of themselves a niche form factor. TOUCH AIOs are even more niche. More people will buy Dell Laptops than will buy this. Fact. However, its all besides the point. As I stated above, the way you were using the machine was intentional handicapping by your own admission. In related news, my 200inch monitor with Windows 8 sucks because I had to climb a ladder to swipe down from the top. > That you can't see which model I meant about shows me the level of your reading comprehension. I wrote which model I tried in my first response to you. Well genius, Dells XPS One lineup is also a Windows 7 line up. I'm sorry I didn't assume you went to a damn Consumer Electronics Show. Because that's so common. > IIRC it was the "Games" tile on the home screen, which should be part of the Store app, but it might have been the "Messaging" app. I didn't install anything 3rd party for sure (since the machine wasn't linked to a Live account). I can only comment on my experience, I haven't checked any documentation. IE shows the address bar at the bottom and the tabs at the top. Swipe in from the top showed both, swipe in from the bottom did nothing. Just tried both those apps on my Windows tablet, which I'm writing this response on, and nope, a bottom swipe brings down the top app bar too. I really don't know what was going on with your experience, but that's not how the AppBar works or ever worked in the SDK. |
| - Score: 3 |
| RE[2]: Comment by Gusar |
| By sparkyERTW on 2012-09-27 13:51:42 |
| And the fact that so few pay attention to that is a prime indication of Microsoft's failure to address that significantly-sized audience. |
| - Score: 1 |
| RE[6]: Touch on a desktop machine just doesn't work |
| By saso on 2012-09-27 14:50:36 |
|
> That's such a dumb artificial restriction. The point in my original comments calling you a minority was to highlight the fact that when contrasted against the entirety of the Windows ecosystem, you're in the minority. Sure, the entire enterprise/home desktop environment is a minority! How stupid of me to think that Microsoft cared about its traditional market! > I don't very much care that you can twist numbers and male your setup more common. It isn't the point I'm making at all. What numbers did I twist? > Which makes sense. AIOs aren't primarily designed for touch. NO desktop is designed for touch. Whether it's AIO or KVM+box doesn't matter. Nobody reaches with their hand onto the monitor. > This would ring true using any touch OS. The ergonomics are not there. Hallelujah, you finally got it. > Touch is instead supposed to augment, Or maybe you didn't... > much like now the mouse augments the keyboard. Same with Pen. Its a choice. When was the last time you used a pen tablet to operate a computer? I've had a Wacom tablet for 10 years and I've never used it to control the OS. It's a very narrow single-application tool that is completely useless to the vast majority of users. > The model you said you tested has an adjustable stand. You can tilt it closer to you. That's the entire point. The stand is nearly useless. > Touch is optional. Using it as the primary method of input is absurd. First you tell me to move it using a stand into a touch-input position and then you tell me that using touch for primary input is absurd? Do you expect me to move it every 1-2 minutes depending on what app I'm using at the moment? > However, its not the fault of the OS. Its just not a form factor suited for that kind of thing. Finally I agree. Touch screens on desktops make no sense. My entire point from the get go. > The same goes for the touch screen laptops. Its there in addition to a touchpad. Not to replace it. That's the greatest miss I think people have when it comes to Windows 8. Touch is an option. So is Pen. So is Mouse. So is Keyboard. Its an option. In any given environment there is a combination of tools that is optimal and introducing other elements actually creates a detrimental setup. Touch + KVM is one such combination. KVM is highly accurate, very fast and allows for a rich set of input options. Touch, OTOH, is much slower, much less accurate and limits the richness of the displayed content. Nevertheless, it serves well in environments where external controls are impractical (e.g. mobile devices). Your constant desire to shoehorn touch into everything shows me you've obviously never used it on larger screens. I have, and it doesn't add anything to the mix that KVM doesn't already have (besides adding smudges onto your screen, that is). > No. They can use a mouse and keyboard. They still exist. Shocking. I know. My entire argument was about touch-on-desktop and how Metro is completely structured around it, which leads to detrimental effects on traditional desktop-class applications. Also, you've simply skipped over my points 3-5 which are just as valid without touch (that is where you see the primary touch-orientation of Metro spill over into traditional desktop land and affect it negatively). > In fact, if they'd like, they purchase gesture enabled mice and trackpads. Not touch screens, have never argued against that. Get it through your thick skull. > I think the issue is overblown, much like the Vista DRM stuff was overblown. At the time OSNews ran like 10 articles on it a say. FSF claimed it'd cause global flooding, etc. Things tend to get exaggerated. What has this got to do with my arguments? Or right, nothing. > AIOs are in and of themselves a niche form factor. TOUCH AIOs are even more niche. I'm not speaking Swahili am I? I explained to you exactly why this very exact argument is bunk (where the CPU+motherboard are positioned is irrelevant), and you just ignored it and repeat the same thing over and over again like a broken record. > However, its all besides the point. Congrats, finally you caught up to reality. > As I stated above, the way you were using the machine was intentional handicapping by your own admission. How about addressing my points 3-5 then? Oh right, you can't, because those still apply even without touch. Look, the fact of the matter is, Metro was designed with touch in mind - that was the entire guiding principle behind it. For instance: why is everything fullscreen? Because touch doesn't work on windowed GUIs. Why are controls spaced so far apart? Because fingers are darn imprecise. Why are there hot corners instead of panels of controls ala Ribbon? Because on small touch screens we need to save space. The entire desktop experience is being overridden to make way for a paradigm that was thrust over from a different form factor. > In related news, my 200inch monitor with Windows 8 sucks because I had to climb a ladder to swipe down from the top. In related news, you can't make sensible arguments and so you come up with BS. > Well genius, Dells XPS One lineup is also a Windows 7 line up. I'm sorry I didn't assume you went to a damn Consumer Electronics Show. Because that's so common. Well genius, that's because the XPS One 27 with Windows 8 is exactly the same hardware as the XPS One 27 with Windows 7. If you were unsure, you could have Googled it. > Just tried both those apps on my Windows tablet, Seeing as these aren't released on the market yet, way to show everybody that you clearly have no conflict of interest... > a bottom swipe brings down the top app bar too. I really don't know what was going on with your experience, but that's not how the AppBar works or ever worked in the SDK. Then go talk to Dell, they're messing up your product. |
| - Score: 1 |
| RE[6]: Touch on a desktop machine just doesn't work |
| By ze_jerkface on 2012-09-27 15:22:34 |
|
Yes I've fallen from grace, or perhaps I was never a fanboy and you liked me before I started bashing the latest version of Windows. If Microsoft had listened to us Windows developers over Vista they would have waited a year and not had any problems. But fanboys agreed at the time that Vista was awesome. Gee who ended up being right, the fanboys or the assholes? Now get back to shilling, I see some posters here need to be told why they actually like what they don't. |
| - Score: 1 |
| RE[2]: Comment by Gusar |
| By ze_jerkface on 2012-09-27 15:29:10 |
|
Oh really? Where is the classic start menu? The Metro screen makes a mess of my neatly organized start menu in my developer box which ironically is filled with Visual Studio, Microsoft Office and SQL Server related software. And no I cannot pin everything to the taskbar or fill the desktop with shortcuts. Why would I want to make a mess of my desktop? |
| - Score: 1 |
| RE[4]: Hmmm |
| By Neolander on 2012-09-27 17:13:54 |
|
> The problem is the fault of Linux failing to provide a stable driver API/ABI - if Linux provided said stable interface then the responsibility could be then placed back on the shoulders of hardware vendors to maintain their drivers. The reality is that every distribution of Linux isn't compatible with the next, you can't simply just grab a driver compiled against one kernel version of a particular distribution and then have it work without any problems on another - that is the fault of the OS vendor. Compare that to Windows which has a stable API and ABI thus barring any stupid decisions made by the programmers at said third party hardware vendor then things should work without too many problems. Actually, as much as the concept of a stable driver ABI is lovable in theory, Windows does not really have it anymore. As an example, Microsoft switched GPU drivers API ABI from XP to Vista, added new features that required new drivers to be supported in Win7, and now they are breaking it once more just for the fun of it with Windows 8. Goes to show that in the realm of hardware support, manufacturer cooperation is much more important than technical merits. It is true that Microsoft do not usually break their driver APIs during the lifecycle of a given release, though, unlike some unscrupulous Linux distros which ship incompatible kernel and Xorg releases as harmless security updates. > You don't have to be technically inclined to realise "you get what you paid for" - heck, my sister bought an el-cheapo NZ$600 Acer laptop and she knew what she was getting but as she said to me it was a throw away laptop and that should be move onto something better later on. Lets not assume that every person out there is clueless because a fair chunk of people, even if it is by gut instinct alone, that you pay for what you get and that the extra money isn't necessarily for the brand but also the fact that these companies support you for the long haul. I know a lot of people who understand that a cheap laptop will have crappy hardware, that fail early, overheats, and that kind of crap. Fewer people, however, seem to avoid blaming "Windows" or "PCs" for awful OEM installs. > Which mean nothing given that OEM will have newer drivers from their suppliers than what is actually available on the internet. Synaptic for example is already shipping Windows 8 compliant drivers through Lenovo (IIRC 16.2.x) which aren't available on the Synaptic website itself. Are you trying to sell me that RTM copies of Windows do not include at least basic support for one of the world's most widespread touchpad brands ? > Regarding ACPI, again, that requires a power management driver which requires the OEM to provide an updated driver - again, if it is anything like the Lenovo situation then the driver will be release either on the day or a week or two after Windows 8 has actually hit the market. Basic ACPI operation (such as sleep and resume) shouldn't require a driver and per-manufacturer support. It has been designed precisely to standardize power management and avoid that kind of mess. Some device drivers should explicitly support ACPI and run routines on sleep and resume in order to avoid problems on resume (like, say, assuming that a network card is still connected to a network), but failure to do so should not cause a full kernel crash. > Windows 8 has been RTM'ed but it is not general availability, it isn't shipping and very few hardware vendors have Windows 8 test drivers available - again, come back once Windows 8 has actually shipped to the general public then draw your own conclusions base on reality and not someones half baked review based on September 5 drivers that were tested only on Windows 7. I guess we will indeed find out in a month, but if drivers are still not ready at this point I would tend to predict a Vista-like scenario with very few mature drivers at release time myself. > Then you should wait till the driver has been released - goodness gracious me, what is so f--king hard about looking up the hardware vendors website and checking whether they have a Windows 8 compatible driver first before deciding to install? install first ask questions later? Hardware vendors will claim very early to have a Windows 8 compatible driver. What they will not necessarily announce is when said driver will actually be in a stable and usable state. Edited 2012-09-27 17:30 UTC |
| - Score: 1 |
| RE[3]: Comment by Gusar |
| By lucas_maximus on 2012-09-27 17:31:06 |
|
> Oh really? Where is the classic start menu? The Metro screen makes a mess of my neatly organized start menu in my developer box which ironically is filled with Visual Studio, Microsoft Office and SQL Server related software. Neatly organised my arse. Lots of tiny little icons I have to try to spot (btw I have 20/20 vision) I have SQL Server, VS etc. and I don't have a problem. I rarely access the start-menu as is without typing in the search box, so the new metro mode is no different than how it currently works, it is just DISPLAYED differently. Using a keyboard it is faster than the old start menu, one less click on the search box. If you are calling yourself and dev and not using the keyboard to search for stuff in the start menu, just do me a favour and make sure I don't have to work with any of your code. > And no I cannot pin everything to the taskbar or fill the desktop with shortcuts. Why would I want to make a mess of my desktop? Err because pinning regularly used app is how it supposed work. The Win7 Taskbar was basically QuickLaunch and Window Control in one. In fact if you are using programs regularly and they aren't pinned, then you aren't using the interface correctly. I will re-iterate, the only thing that has changed is the the start menu is displayed differently. Nothing works significantly differently. EDIT: Lets also forget all the dual screen improvements that have been put in. Edited 2012-09-27 17:35 UTC |
| - Score: 3 |
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